Is there going to be alot of ebaying in guild wars? - Page 3 - Guild Wars Forums

KainMagus · Apr 07, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59

I thought about it and was concerend about ruined economy and the skills. I realized skills can be bought with money, real or in game, but they got ya because you need to earn the actually skill points to purchace them. I think NCsoft and Arenanet are hip to all the things that are bad about other games, and thats what makes this one so interesting. In my opinion, ebay wont be a problem

Xellos · Apr 07, 2005, 08:08 AM // 08:08

As usual, even in Guild Wars the arguement between lefts and rights can't be solved. Try to keep civil at least on this forum

Manderlock · Apr 07, 2005, 08:09 AM // 08:09

your points are vaild, but i have to agree with lunarhound. if this rule is breched then whats to keep players form hacken. you could say well the level cap is 20 so it dose not matter, but as you said you have to "earn" your skill points. think that being lacks on any rule opens pandoras box

i know i said i was done, but this guy can at least talk civily so i will disscuse the thread

Kellogs · Apr 07, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Ebaying...

Wheres the fun in that ?

Daemon · Apr 07, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by KainMagus

i dont know about you guys and girls, but if im going to spend actual cash money on a "sword" its going to be a real one and im going to chop real people on the train with it but thats just me

make sure I'm not on that train while you go on your murderous spree...and why a train anyways?

Manderlock · Apr 07, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon

make sure I'm not on that train while you go on your murderous spree...and why a train anyways?

just a guess, but no metal detectors?

Daemon · Apr 07, 2005, 08:23 AM // 08:23

No metal detectors? REALLY! So does that mean they will let me keep my pencil and nail clippers on board??

...maybe I should go to bed instead of wandering off topic...

Manderlock · Apr 07, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25

bah, dont worry bout that this thread is so drawn out its rediculis

spiritofcat · Apr 07, 2005, 09:19 AM // 09:19

On the point of the meaning of Uber, yes, it literally means over, but so does super. Ultimate means last. But that's not what they are taken to mean in the context we're talking about.

As to ruining the economy of GW by using Ebay, don't random gold drops also do bad things to an economy? For a real economy to work there has to be a fixed amount of currency in existence, so if gold is going to magically appear out of chests or dead monsters, it would have to be magically vanishing from somewhere too to keep the balance.

Deagol · Apr 07, 2005, 10:50 AM // 10:50

You will not have to spend any money on ebay to be competitive. If you have leveled up to 20 on a normal way, you will be as competive as your personal skill level determine. No amount of ebay cash will make a mediocre player anything than mediocre in Guild Wars.

There will be a bit of ebaying from two sources: Some PvP people who consider PvE a waste of time will do anything to minimize the (already short) time needed in PvE to get a reasonable character, or the time needed to create a another build. Maybe mostly on craft materials, as that seem to be the limit for some professions. And there will be a small amount of trading for vanity items, like the dragon sword, by people who are more interested showing off than in playing.

Neither of these will affect PvP or the economy in any signficant way.

Scaphism · Apr 07, 2005, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunarhound

The economy is just as much a part of the game as the battle system, and using real world resources in an attempt to get around it is cheating.
If it's okay for someone to use outside resources (real world money) to dodge the limitations imposed by the game's economy because they have less time, then by the same token, it's okay for me to use outside resources (hacks) to dodge the limitations imposed by the game's combat system because I have less skill. Hacking and ebaying are two means to the same end: Attempting to circumvent parts of the game system that you find inconvenient. Cheating.

Yes, people are going to do it no matter what, just like they're going to devise cheat programs no matter what, but that doesn't make it okay.

Lunarhound- if it's in the EULA that you can't purchase in-game items with "Real World" money, then it's against the rules, but it doesn't follow the analogy you've given.

As far at US Contract law goes, there are a few things you need to enter into a contract- both parties agreeing on a transfer of goods/services, and both sides are giving up something in return. Oversimplifying a ton, if the goods/services being purchased aren't illegal themselves, then it's a valid contract, as long as both parties live up to their end of the deal. If the goods in question are illegal- you can't purchase heroin, for example, and you can't hire someone to assassinate another person- then there is no legally binding contract.

Legal banter aside, if I agree to give a vendor $50 for a sword of uberness, and he agrees, and we trade, it's a valid contract. He's decided that my $50 is worth his sword. If he wants to, he can ask that I wear his guild cape for a month, or dye all my armor orange- in that case, I'm offering a service, renting out the space on my guild cape, or doing something he find valuable like dyeing all my armor- in exchange for the sword. Both are valid contracts.

I don't know if Arena Net has specific restrictions against this kind of trading- I think that they would, but I'd just be guessing.

That's a very different situation than creating a program that hacks the system to create gold, or makes duplicate copies of a rare weapon. In those cases you're infringing on their software for unfair gain. That's not a trade, that's an exploit, and I'm sure Arena Net rules against that.

We can certainly argue that they're both cheating, and I'm not condoning either of them, but they would be cheating for different reasons. A contract is a contract an an exploit is an exploit. It's not the same thing, let's not confuse the two.

Sin · Apr 07, 2005, 11:24 AM // 11:24

The activities required make a program to duplicate items or make gold, even before the program is made, would violate the basic "reverse engineer" clause of any EULA. Was just adding this "on to the previous post" so to speak, not in contrast or contrary.

Elonis · Apr 07, 2005, 11:27 AM // 11:27

15 dollars for gaile's equipment...

its my final offer.

Said this for humor but ill keep my end of the deal if you can achieve it..

Lunarhound · Apr 07, 2005, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Lunarhound- if it's in the EULA that you can't purchase in-game items with "Real World" money, then it's against the rules, but it doesn't follow the analogy you've given.

As far at US Contract law goes, there are a few things you need to enter into a contract- both parties agreeing on a transfer of goods/services, and both sides are giving up something in return. Oversimplifying a ton, if the goods/services being purchased aren't illegal themselves, then it's a valid contract, as long as both parties live up to their end of the deal. If the goods in question are illegal- you can't purchase heroin, for example, and you can't hire someone to assassinate another person- then there is no legally binding contract.

Legal banter aside, if I agree to give a vendor $50 for a sword of uberness, and he agrees, and we trade, it's a valid contract. He's decided that my $50 is worth his sword. If he wants to, he can ask that I wear his guild cape for a month, or dye all my armor orange- in that case, I'm offering a service, renting out the space on my guild cape, or doing something he find valuable like dyeing all my armor- in exchange for the sword. Both are valid contracts.

I don't know if Arena Net has specific restrictions against this kind of trading- I think that they would, but I'd just be guessing.

That's a very different situation than creating a program that hacks the system to create gold, or makes duplicate copies of a rare weapon. In those cases you're infringing on their software for unfair gain. That's not a trade, that's an exploit, and I'm sure Arena Net rules against that.

When I say they're both "the same" I simply mean that they're both ways of attempting to get around the established game system. The fact that one alters the game software and one doesn't, or even that one is illegal and the other may not be, doesn't matter in the least. Corking a bat isn't illegal either, but it's still against the rules to use one in baseball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

We can certainly argue that they're both cheating, and I'm not condoning either of them, but they would be cheating for different reasons. A contract is a contract an an exploit is an exploit. It's not the same thing, let's not confuse the two.

That's my point exactly my point. They're both cheating. They're two different ways of going about it, but I'm not trying to seperate and define different types of rule-breaking, I'm trying to put ebaying in context and point out exactly why I consider it cheating. Both hacking and ebaying use outside means to dodge in-game mechanics in order to gain things that I otherwise wouldn't be able to. In that context, they're exactly the same.

William of Orange · Apr 07, 2005, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunarhound

So, I suppose passing judgement on people who use hacks isn't cool either. If it's okay for someone to use outside resources (real world money) to dodge the limitations imposed by the game's economy because they have less time, then by the same token, it's okay for me to use outside resources (hacks) to dodge the limitations imposed by the game's combat system because I have less skill. Hacking and ebaying are two means to the same end: Attempting to circumvent parts of the game system that you find inconvenient. Cheating.

While I agree with the point that it's not "cool" to be spending money/using hacks to advance onesself quicker in the game, I don't think that Inde was trying to say that it was alright for people to be using hacks. My understanding of his statement was that, "OK, so people are trying to be lazy and buy their way through the game. Ruins the fun of the game, but if they want to be stupid and spend their money like that, then so be it." That was obviously paraphrased, but that was the jist of what I read. One could deduce that this opens up the way for people to say it's alright to use hacks, since, "Hey, if people can buy stuff on eBay, why can't I just cheat a little and get all my skills in one shot?" But it doesn't seem like Inde was trying to say that at all, but his point just came out in the wrong way.

But then again, could be wrong. I'm not even sure if this post makes any sense, because I just woke up and my mind's not really clear yet.

Xellos · Apr 07, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

You should ask yourself this, if Arena Net could've fixed it, why didn't they? Answer is, they can't. At least not yet. And most likely not ever, since a game isn't perfect. The farm value is pretty low already, just compare it to WoW. It completely makes a liar out of whoever said the EULA blah blah blah. Sure, your not allowed to sell it in-game, but out of game? Ha ha ha.

Rizzen Khalazar · Apr 07, 2005, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taranis

Do you guys even know that "??ber" is german and means Over?? Every MMORPG(yet CORPG) got ebay'ers, even if they're just selling accounts...

It also means Super, as in Uber Soldat, which means Super Soldier.

Inde · Apr 07, 2005, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Lunar - I'm not even arguing that the EULA forbids it. Aside for the 'validity' of the EULA and the argument of 'selling my time', my point is that at times there are reasons that can be construed valid by many as to why eBaying occurs. Simply calling people idiots who do this is saying that to a mirror.

DarkWasp · Apr 07, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

People would Ebay there own fingers if they could. So yes expect to see Ebayed items and accounts.

Heindrich · Apr 07, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Buying items/gold on ebay may not always be a bad or unfair thing. People who have more time to play a game can acquire rare/uber in game items and those who don't have the time, usually have the rl cash to pay for it. In a way it levels out the playing field for the die hard gamer and the weekend warrior.

I think its more of a jealousy issue than a code of conduct issue. I mean, sure, its not always fair that people higher up in the socioeconomic food chain can simply purchase everything they want, but they are also the idiots who pay the hardcore gamers rl cash for these virtual items.

Apr 07, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59	#41
KainMagus Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2005	skills I thought about it and was concerend about ruined economy and the skills. I realized skills can be bought with money, real or in game, but they got ya because you need to earn the actually skill points to purchace them. I think NCsoft and Arenanet are hip to all the things that are bad about other games, and thats what makes this one so interesting. In my opinion, ebay wont be a problem

Apr 07, 2005, 10:50 AM // 10:50	#50
Deagol Krytan Explorer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Denmark	Going back to the question... You will not have to spend any money on ebay to be competitive. If you have leveled up to 20 on a normal way, you will be as competive as your personal skill level determine. No amount of ebay cash will make a mediocre player anything than mediocre in Guild Wars. There will be a bit of ebaying from two sources: Some PvP people who consider PvE a waste of time will do anything to minimize the (already short) time needed in PvE to get a reasonable character, or the time needed to create a another build. Maybe mostly on craft materials, as that seem to be the limit for some professions. And there will be a small amount of trading for vanity items, like the dragon sword, by people who are more interested showing off than in playing. Neither of these will affect PvP or the economy in any signficant way.

Apr 07, 2005, 11:24 AM // 11:24	#52
Sin Banned Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Joint :p	The activities required make a program to duplicate items or make gold, even before the program is made, would violate the basic "reverse engineer" clause of any EULA. Was just adding this "on to the previous post" so to speak, not in contrast or contrary. Last edited by Sin; Apr 07, 2005 at 11:27 AM // 11:27.. Reason: clarity

Apr 07, 2005, 08:08 AM // 08:08	#42
Xellos Jungle Guide Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: No Idea	As usual, even in Guild Wars the arguement between lefts and rights can't be solved. Try to keep civil at least on this forum

Apr 07, 2005, 08:09 AM // 08:09	#43
Manderlock Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: TX Guild: Crimson ScS Profession: W/N	your points are vaild, but i have to agree with lunarhound. if this rule is breched then whats to keep players form hacken. you could say well the level cap is 20 so it dose not matter, but as you said you have to "earn" your skill points. think that being lacks on any rule opens pandoras box i know i said i was done, but this guy can at least talk civily so i will disscuse the thread

Apr 07, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14	#44
Kellogs Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2005 Guild: [oOo] Oodles of Noobles	Ebaying... Wheres the fun in that ?

Apr 07, 2005, 08:23 AM // 08:23	#47
Daemon Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver, Canada Profession: Mo/W	No metal detectors? REALLY! So does that mean they will let me keep my pencil and nail clippers on board?? ...maybe I should go to bed instead of wandering off topic...

Apr 07, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25	#48
Manderlock Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: TX Guild: Crimson ScS Profession: W/N	bah, dont worry bout that this thread is so drawn out its rediculis

Apr 07, 2005, 09:19 AM // 09:19	#49
spiritofcat Jungle Guide Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Guild: Order of the Sanguine Dragon [OSD] Profession: E/Mo	On the point of the meaning of Uber, yes, it literally means over, but so does super. Ultimate means last. But that's not what they are taken to mean in the context we're talking about. As to ruining the economy of GW by using Ebay, don't random gold drops also do bad things to an economy? For a real economy to work there has to be a fixed amount of currency in existence, so if gold is going to magically appear out of chests or dead monsters, it would have to be magically vanishing from somewhere too to keep the balance.

Apr 07, 2005, 11:27 AM // 11:27	#53
Elonis Academy Page Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Some break in the fabric of reality.	15 dollars for gaile's equipment... its my final offer. Said this for humor but ill keep my end of the deal if you can achieve it..

Apr 07, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20	#56
Xellos Jungle Guide Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: No Idea	You should ask yourself this, if Arena Net could've fixed it, why didn't they? Answer is, they can't. At least not yet. And most likely not ever, since a game isn't perfect. The farm value is pretty low already, just compare it to WoW. It completely makes a liar out of whoever said the EULA blah blah blah. Sure, your not allowed to sell it in-game, but out of game? Ha ha ha.

Apr 07, 2005, 01:03 PM // 13:03	#58
Inde Site Contributor Join Date: Dec 2004	Lunar - I'm not even arguing that the EULA forbids it. Aside for the 'validity' of the EULA and the argument of 'selling my time', my point is that at times there are reasons that can be construed valid by many as to why eBaying occurs. Simply calling people idiots who do this is saying that to a mirror.

Apr 07, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35	#59
DarkWasp Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Paradise Guild: Agency Of Forbidden Fruits [Oot] Profession: R/A	People would Ebay there own fingers if they could. So yes expect to see Ebayed items and accounts.

Apr 07, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08	#60
Heindrich Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Wisconsin	Buying items/gold on ebay may not always be a bad or unfair thing. People who have more time to play a game can acquire rare/uber in game items and those who don't have the time, usually have the rl cash to pay for it. In a way it levels out the playing field for the die hard gamer and the weekend warrior. I think its more of a jealousy issue than a code of conduct issue. I mean, sure, its not always fair that people higher up in the socioeconomic food chain can simply purchase everything they want, but they are also the idiots who pay the hardcore gamers rl cash for these virtual items.